Minutes of meeting between Cairngorms National Park Authority & Scottish Gamekeepers’ Association

ALMDLast month we blogged about a comment that had been made during an official meeting between the Cairngorms National Park Authority (CNPA) and the SGA. The comment came from a CNPA Board member (Eleanor Mackintosh) who was advising the gamekeepers to ‘cover up’ dead mountain hares so that photographs of the corpses couldn’t be published on social media (see here).

That meeting between the CNPA and the SGA was triggered by the SGA’s anger over a blog that had been written by Will Boyd Wallis (CNPA’s Head of Land Management & Conservation) in August, where Mr Boyd Wallis had raised legitimate concerns about some aspects of intensive grouse moor management (see here).

The SGA was furious about that CNPA blog, for a number of reasons (see below). The SGA asked for a meeting with the CNPA to discuss these concerns and the meeting was arranged, apparently after the ‘intervention‘ of Fergus Ewing MSP, who is Cabinet Secretary for the Rural Economy & Connectivity, but whose remit does not cover the National Parks (Cabinet Secretary Roseanna Cunningham has responsibility for the National Parks).

Chairman of the SGA, Alex Hogg, wrote to the CNPA requesting a meeting. We got a copy of his letter via an FoI request and here it is: sga-letter-requesting-mtg-with-cnpa-sept-2016

It’s an entertaining read. In it, Alex claims there’s no need for concern about the potential environmental harm of dumping tonnes of medicated grit on to the grouse moors because there’s no scientific evidence to show any damage. He also suggests that if the CNPA was concerned about potential environmental damage then the CNPA would be looking at the issue of dogs and livestock (which have also been wormed) defecating all over the Park. Hmm. If dogs and livestock had been wormed every day with a drug that was 10-20 x the strength permitted for use in the UK, and those piles of faeces were placed at every 100 metres across the grouse moor, for up to eight months of the year, as are piles of medicated grit put out for red grouse, then he might have had a valid point. Unfortunately for Alex, there is growing scientific evidence that the drug used in medicated grit (Flubendazole) is actually highly toxic to some aquatic organisms (e.g. see here) and, given the extent of its use on intensively managed grouse moors, this is exactly why Leeds University is offering a PhD scholarship to examine this issue in more detail (see here).

Anyway, on to the actual meeting itself. This took place on 29 September 2016 at Glenlochy in the National Park (an interesting choice of venue given the raptor persecution crimes that have been recorded in the area). In attendance were several representatives of the CNPA, several from the SGA, including Bert Burnett, some gamekeepers, and local SNP councillor Geva Blackett, who used to work as the SGA’s Parliamentary Officer many moons ago and who is married to Simon Blackett, the (now retired) Estate Factor at Invercauld Estate.

The minutes can be downloaded here: minutes-cnpa-sga-mtg-29-sept-2016

These minutes are well worth a read, not just because they expose the buffoonery of the SGA, but also because they provide an insight to the astonishing display of deference from the CNPA officials towards the SGA.

The meeting covered many topics and we won’t go in to all of them here because you can read them for yourselves and have a good giggle (whatever you do, don’t diss red grouse by calling them willow grouse!). The main thing we want to focus on is the discussion about gamekeepers getting licences to monitor and ring raptors and waders within the National Park.

Geva Blackett is pushing the CNPA to support this idea, and according to Bert Burnett, “no training is needed”. He really doesn’t have a clue, does he?!  The CNPA seems equally as ignorant, claiming that they’d like to support this initiative because they’d like to know about raptor numbers within the Park. Er, have they not heard of the award-winning Scottish Raptor Monitoring Scheme? A multi-partner scheme that holds all the raptor monitoring data collected across Scotland? Apparently not.

What’s even funnier about the SGA’s demands to get licences is that just this week, Bert Burnett and a couple of his cronies (including a convicted falcon thief) have launched a social media campaign designed to portray raptor fieldworkers in a negative light. They’ve trawled the internet and come up with some old photographs of raptor tagging activities (one photo is at least 13 years old!) and have made wholly unsubstantiated allegations about the behaviour of those featured in the photographs (unbeknownst to Bert, one of the photographs is actually from a project in North America, not from Scotland!). Apparently, these nest visits cause birds to desert. Hmm. And the evidence for that is where, exactly?

Bert has also claimed that raptor monitoring, ringing and tagging is “completely unregulated and those doing it are totally non accountable for their actions”. This exposes Bert’s lack of knowledge about the training and qualifications needed for this work, and also his ignorance about the high level of reporting required by the licensing authorities.

Strange, isn’t it, that if Bert thinks all this monitoring and ringing is ‘bad’, that at this meeting with the CNPA he is pushing for gamekeepers to be issued with licences to do the same work!

And if Bert/the SGA and co are so upset about satellite-tagging, why are they not kicking off about the GWCT’s woodcock satellite-tagging project?

And if Bert/the SGA and co are so upset about the ‘welfare’ of satellite-tagged golden eagles, why do we never see them kicking off about eagles that have been found poisoned, shot or trapped on driven grouse moors?

What is obviously going on here is a desperate little smear campaign designed to coincide with the forthcoming review of raptor satellite tag data, as requested by Cabinet Secretary Roseanna Cunningham (see here). This review, due out in the spring, is expected to be damning. We already know that many satellite-tagged raptors ‘disappear’ on grouse moors, and we also know that many satellite-tagged raptors have turned up either poisoned, shot or trapped on grouse moors. This review will pull all of those data together and it is predicted to be a shocking read.

The SGA knows this, hence these latest tactics to try and discredit the raptor workers.

Now, what was it that Tim (Kim) Baynes of the Scottish Moorland Group told that parliamentary committee last week? Ah yes, it was this:

We would very much like to see greater cooperation between ourselves, the Raptor Study Groups and the RSPB“.

It’s pretty clear the SGA has not received this message, or if it has, it’s chosen to ignore it.

But you carry on, Bert, because what you’re doing is political suicide. By asking your cronies to send (no doubt illiterate, baseless rants) to Roseanna Cunningham, complaining about Scottish Raptor Study Group members, she will see that the SGA is trying to undermine her review of the satellite tag data, and she’ll also recognise that the SGA’s claims of ‘partnership working’ with other members of the PAW Raptor Group are nothing more than lip service. PAW partners? Piss-poor partners, more like.

Photograph: dead golden eagle ‘Alma’, found poisoned on a grouse moor on Millden Estate in the Angus Glens. Her corpse was only found because she was wearing a satellite tag, fitted by Scottish Raptor Study Group member and internationally-recognised expert Roy Dennis. It’s no surprise then, that the SGA wants to put a stop to satellite-tagging.

28 Responses to “Minutes of meeting between Cairngorms National Park Authority & Scottish Gamekeepers’ Association”

  1. 1 crypticmirror
    December 12, 2016 at 7:13 pm

    The best thing SNP party members could do is deselect Fergus Ewing. I’m sure there has been plenty of entryism to get him selected, anybody in his constituency up for organising a little bit of de-selection entryism as counter? He needs to go, he is an embarrassment and a hindrance to progressive governance.

    • 2 against feudalism
      December 12, 2016 at 7:39 pm

      The same for Giva Blackett, I have to wonder if she is in the right party ?

      • 3 crypticmirror
        December 12, 2016 at 8:09 pm

        Standard tactics from the right; join, subvert, destroy. Just look across the pond at current events there, or the sterling work of the undercover Met boys in fermenting trouble in London community groups. If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em and ruin them from the inside. We all know how it works.

    • 4 dave angel
      December 13, 2016 at 10:01 am

      If you thing Fergus Ewing was selected due to entryism, or think that there is any hope of him ever being deselected, then you have a lot to learn about the true nature of the SNP.

  2. 5 George M
    December 12, 2016 at 7:23 pm

    Aye, and he can take Graeme Dey with him.

  3. December 12, 2016 at 8:15 pm

    All very amusing Im sure but isnt this exactly the [successful] tactic used by grouse moor keepers in the Peak District? We read in comments to your recent blog re Arkengarthdale Estate poison cache, that English Nature had granted merlin monitoring licences to a head keeper..in an attempt [unbelievably!] to defuse conflict between “alleged” raptor killers and local raptor workers….lazy, ill-informed or “allegedly” downright corrupt politicians would grab that kind of idea up here. What that results in is a heaven sent opportunity to raptor killers to restrict real raptor experts from finding evidence of their crimes. Which is of course what this is all about.

    • 7 Paul V Irving
      December 12, 2016 at 8:32 pm

      Hi Dave, what NE actually did was give Jack Orchel the monitoring license with the headkeepers on five estates in Arkengarthdale and Swaledale as agents to actually do the monitoring. There has been no vetting BTO/NE do not vet agents they take the word of the licensee that they are fit and proper persons! As far as we are aware no training and no supervision. East Arkengarthdale is one of these estates. They picked estates where no monitoring now takes place although 3 used to be monitored until current regimes essentially got rid of the monitors before open access. I would argue that because the grouse industry is rife with wildlife crime that nobody within the industry should be granted such a licence without careful training and supervision at the very least.. People in NE knew about the poison stash yet the head keeper of the estate was / is suitable to be an agent. You couldn’t make it up. We need to stop keepers out of ringing and monitoring unless within a raptor group situation of some sort.

  4. 9 Jimmy
    December 12, 2016 at 8:45 pm

    Shameless chancers the lot of them.

  5. December 12, 2016 at 9:12 pm

    For a start, there is surely nobody on the planet, better qualified than Roy Dennis, to carry out satellite tag work on raptors!

  6. 11 Roderick Leslie
    December 12, 2016 at 9:16 pm

    I was really impressed by Will Boyd Wallis’ blog – balanced and sensible, and not pulling punches on the gap between responsible management and the all-out Grouse management that is the problem. Also, pointing out what is easily missed, that there are people in the private sector trying to do the right thing – and probably, and rightly, recognising that without a serious effort to address the issues grouse shooting’ life is limited. Will deserves our support – and, sadly, given the political atmosphere may well need it.

    I suppose the ultimate bad joke in all this is that for once the cover up proposed is not a euphemism, it is exactly that – a tarpaulin over the evidence.

  7. 12 Alan
    December 12, 2016 at 9:34 pm

    Is the data kindly held by the raptor monitoring group available to view.

  8. 13 georgieswildblog
    December 12, 2016 at 10:24 pm

    I didn’t know much about this until I read this blog, except for the growing bad press against Raptors at the moment. Very informative, sad, and so important to be publicized – thank you.

  9. 14 Paul Seligman
    December 13, 2016 at 12:05 am

    Poor minutes, apart from the content, they don’t identify who represents which organisation. Then again, perhaps they basically function as one chummy club, meeting in the ‘shooting room’.

    The final section on ringing and raptor workers beggars belief, I’m tweeting about that (@PaulSeligNature).

  10. 15 Doug Malpus
    December 13, 2016 at 12:06 am

    Hmmn! Game keepers monitoring and ringing raptors (necks?)…..

    Perhaps codswallop should be renamed as ….. names on a postcard please.

    The UK and probably the world, allegedly, thrives on lies.


  11. December 13, 2016 at 1:54 am

    Sympathy to the park authority folk…. those minutes are nothing like the ones of our discussions with the minister and the board. A poorly informed rammy… no wonder change is on the way!

  12. 18 Greengras
    December 13, 2016 at 11:03 am

    The blatant underhand tactics employed by the criminal grouse industry are on a par with the state sponsored drug cheats of Russia. xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx

    [Ed: Thanks. Comment partly deleted as defamatory]

  13. 19 stiubhart-uu
    December 13, 2016 at 5:12 pm

    The problem with expecting the SNP to do anything constructive about anything at all quickly is that they have rapidly become part of the establishment and will do their level best not to upset the landed and moneyed interests in the country; just look how long it took too get beavers recognised and protected as an indigenous species.

  14. 20 George M
    December 13, 2016 at 9:58 pm

    For Tim Baynes…… Richard Cooke of Dalhousie and Invermark Estates, like Tim Baynes, made a plea in the Courier for the RSPB to work with landowners and gamekeepers to work together as he believes, or says he does, that this is the only way for hen harriers to return to our moors as a breeding species. What he did not say is that this has been tried before .. in 1998.
    And the outcome?
    “The second point of interest from this paper is the revelation that RSPB fieldworkers who were participating in the 1998 National Hen Harrier Survey were required to inform Estates about their survey visits and any subsequent survey results pertaining to their land, and in some cases were accompanied to those sites by the Estates’ gamekeepers. Is it just coincidence that many of the hen harrier nests that were recorded in NE Scotland during that survey year ‘mysteriously’ failed, and the number of sites found the following year dropped significantly from previous years? We don’t think so. Two + two = four, not five.”
    So, what the pro-shooting lobby really wants is an easier way to access the data that those who are sincerely trying to promote the bird collect i.e. an inside man.

  15. 21 Richard Guthrie
    December 14, 2016 at 12:11 am

    Now let’s not hear anyone in the UK criticize songbird killing in Italy.

  16. 22 Greg McShane
    December 14, 2016 at 12:49 pm

    I wonder if you’ve read the recently published SNH report into Deer Management (or the lack of it!). Interesting comparing the reluctance of the shooters to reduce red deer numbers (I’ve only picked up ticks in areas of high deer density – never in areas of high mountain hare density!) with their delight in killing everything else (or so it seems at times!). The shooters’ side isn’t happy with the SNH report. Double standards? Surely not?

  17. 23 Tony Phillips
    December 14, 2016 at 7:31 pm

    I found the comments about culling hares because of their numbers and their overgrazing of the moors. puzzling. Do these people really not realise that they are butchering everything that might predate a hare and might keep their numbers at a balanced level?

  18. 24 Marco McGinty
    December 15, 2016 at 1:04 am

    Ah, Bert Burnett, the master of moronic drivel – the gift that keeps on giving!

    As a result of this topic, I revisited Bert’s Facebook page, to see what nonsense was being spouted by him, and his horde of sanctimonious, sycophantic, imbecilic followers, and I wasn’t surprised to see the same old names, offering their undying support to their master, as they battled against each other to see who could get their noses furthest up Bert’s rectum.

    These people obviously have no concept whatsoever on the subjects of contradiction and hypocrisy, and no ideas of the differences between truth and lies. Which all comes back to the fact that many of them, or perhaps all of them, have the clear traits of the sociopath.

    Anyway, back to some of the messages on Bert’s Facebook page, which are staggeringly nonsensical in the extreme.

    As it’s Bert’s page, we’ll start with the man himself.

    “They are screaming on the bile pages that there is no evidence of the 60-80 bird species nesting or being seen on these moors actually being there. They want these moors to prove their claims but in the same breath refuse to divulge and share their local info with the local estates., which the estates will know anyway.”

    Firstly, note how the oft-quoted and most definite 81 species of birds on grouse moors (from the Gift of Grouse fable), has now been downgraded to 60-80 species, but Bert’s beef seems to be that we have asked for evidence (which has never been provided), yet the SRSG won’t share their information, information that he claims the estates will already have. There may well be a reason that the SRSG don’t share the information, and that reason could have something to do with persecution (it has went on for more than a century), however, if the estates already know of these raptor nesting attempts, then why the hell would they demand the information from the SRSG? Can Bert, and his brown-nosed followers see the contradiction here?

    “I agree David but getting the problem intae perspective is just as important. There will always be instances o’ persecution as long as there’s no legal solution tae actual problems .. that type o persecution is nae worse in sustainable terms than wind turbines or pylons etc.”

    What? Did I just read that correctly? There will always be instances o’ persecution as long as there’s no legal solution tae actual problems? Really? Bert Burnett, a senior spokesperson for the SGA (and the wider shooting industry) appears to be blissfully unaware that there are indeed legal solutions to the widespread problem of persecution, and the country has had these laws for several decades. Just what do they teach in gamekeeping school these days? If the position of a SGA spokesperson is to deny all knowledge of laws regarding wildlife crime, then what hope for younger gamekeepers being taught by people such as Burnett? Then to add the sheer folly, he then goes on to suggest that the deliberate shooting, poisoning, trapping, trampling and bludgeoning of raptors, is in now way any different to the accidental collisions with wind turbines or electricity pylons. Just unbelievable.

    “The RSPB state that wildlife needs suitable habitat, well that being the case shooting estates must have the best sustainable habitats as they have the highest breeding success and numbers of most bird and mammal species in the country.”

    Jesus H Corbett!!! The highest breeding success and numbers of MOST bird and mammal species in the country? Honestly? Where do they get this nonsense from? I know that this is a really longshot, but would anyone from the shooting industry please give me a list of the bird and mammal species. Please! PLEASE! Give me your lists, and I’ll give you lists proving that you are lying.

    “The public and sceptical politicians need to go and see for themselves what is out there for all to see, not take the word of agenda led and cowardly keyboard warriors.”

    Ah, going down the old “cowardly keyboard warrior” route, with a complete disregard for irony. What he does on his facebook page (offering his opinion on certain matters), is no different to what people do on here, but in the mind of the sociopath, it should be OK for him to do so, but not others. Furthermore, if he wants to throw insults at others for being “cowardly keyboard warriors”, he really should take a long, hard look at himself. Let us never forget, that not so long ago, this was the man that from the safety of his own home, wanted to set fire to a bunch of peaceful protestors.

    “I would have thought that the game keepers on the ground should be encouraged to take responsibility for the raptors welfare on their beats and this would be encouraged by those interested in raptors and seen as a way tae build bridges and foster new and positive relations and understanding between the groups. This apparently is not the aim o’ the bile brigade, they would prefer to escalate the conflict and carry on with their non accountable actions.”

    Aye, but despite being illegal for many decades, gamekeepers are still killing raptors. They shouldn’t need encouragement from the conservation sector, they should be operating within the law, and taking the welfare responsibility themselves. If the shooting industry changed its ways, then positive relations and understanding would flourish, but no, instead of accepting that the sole problem lies with the criminal element within the shooting industry, Bert would rather apportion blame on conservationists, by suggesting that it is us that want to escalate the conflict.

    “Comes under human disturbance but that disturbance isna specified by categories ie walkers, cyclists mountaineer, bird botherers or deliberate as far as i’m aware.”

    Yes, in relation to the Scottish Government’s (inadequate) report on wildlife crime, Bert and his followers are trying to suggest that all nest failures down to human disturbance have been acted out by walkers, cyclists and bird botherers, and has nothing to do with gamekeepers and shooters. This accusation has, without surprise, been promoted by a number of his followers.

    “The bile spewers are determined to live in the past and are refusing to acknowledge change, for the better!!”

    Of course, how remiss of me! According to Bert and his followers, it’s the conservationists that are living in the past. According to Bert and his followers, it’s the conservationists that have failed to act within decades-old laws, and it’s the conservationists that are routinely poisoning, shooting, trapping and bludgeoning raptors and other protected species. Oh no, hold on a minute. There’s only one side of the divide that has repeatedly refused to adhere to the laws of the land, staunchly refuse to alter its methods, and continue with the same practices handed down from the Victorian era. Again, the sociopathic traits are much in evidence on Burnett’s Facebook page.

    “It’s becoming blatantly obvious that this raptor monitoring, ringing and tagging etc. is completely unregulated and those doing it are totally non accountable for their actions.”

    Judging by the amount of hatred in the comments section, Bert, and many of his followers, appear to be completely unaware that the RSPB is not responsible for bird ringing in the UK, which just shows that they have very little knowledge of the ringing process, which, when I last looked, could take several years to become a qualified ringer. As a result of Burnett’s comment, and the perceived problems regarding ringing, some of his sycophants demanded that the RSPB and SNH be charged under Vicarious Liability laws.

    But Bert was not alone. There is a plethora of lies, misinformation, propaganda, and plain nonsense on Burnett’s Facebook, and as a result of the quality of bullshit displayed on Burnett’s Facebook page, a serious contender for the Liar of the Year Award, was Tony Black with this;

    “I’m sure that the raptorfiles cause more nest desertion and deaths of what wer healthy chicks with all their disturbances than anyone else, I think the recently published photographs show this to be the case.”

    Well, no, that is a lie, you lying liar. None of the photos of bird ringing show anything that could be considered to be nest desertion or death, so that’s that pish dealt with. Incidentally, what are the Raptorfiles? Is it a new model-based publication by Del Prado?

    However, despite Tony’s best exhibit of all-out lying, he was seriously trounced by Alan Oliver. Obviously, Alan must have been influenced by Alex Hogg’s tale of a monster-sized Goshawk nabbing 35 pheasants in one strike, and has put his own spin on a tale of a dastardly Buzzard of equal size. He went on;

    “I seen one once swoop down took a pair of ospreys 3 eggs and the nest and flew off with it…….something needs doing about them.”

    Yes, you read that correctly, a buzzard of magnificent proportions, was observed lifting two adult Ospreys, their three eggs, and the nest, and flew off with the lot. I’m sure most readers will agree, that with such a magnificent lie, Alan was the clear winner for this year’s award.

    As is customary with prize-giving and awards ceremonies, there is usually an award given for outstanding contribution in the field, and this year is no different. This year, the Lifetime Achievement Award for Bat-shit Craziness, must go to John Edwards, for a succession of idiotic, nonsensical, moronic comments. These included the following snippets;

    “these bile groups are living in the distant past and clinging onto it to try and raise money”

    Er, no. We have moved with the times, whereas, the shooting industry is still firmly lodged in with their Victorian attitudes to wildlife.

    “But, once the public realise that shooting estates and their game keepers are great assets to wildlife conservation, we wont need the likes of the RSPB or the raptor groups, and unless they change their attitudes the will disappear of their own accord IMO.”

    No, I think the likes of the RSPB, in one form or another, will be around for a very long time.

    “the raptor persecution dont want this, they need to perpetuate the idea of persecution for their own survival”

    And here was me thinking that RPS was a voluntary effort, and perhaps costs the individual owner(s) money. I’m quite sure he/she/they are not in it for the money.

    “Even “persecution” figures are being fixed bu including disturbance by hill walkers etc ! just to mislead the public.”

    Aye, that’s right, hill walkers are responsible for raptor persecution.

    “as far as I know any disturbance by ramblers or whatever are now included in reports as “persecution” , just to make the figures look worse.”

    And those evil ramblers!

    “We live in an odd world where game keepers doing a great job of controlling vermin, increasing habitats, encouraging breeding of all manner of species with outstanding results are vilified by the press and public through misinformation”

    A wee bit of a contradiction there, John. How can you possibly encourage “breeding of all manner of species with outstanding results”, yet at the same time be “doing a great job controlling vermin”?

    “And on the other hand ,we have the likes of the RSPB and raptor folks doing sod all with no results and are using birds to raise money, pestering (/killing in reality) birds on what is looking like a massive scale”

    Seriously? The RSPB are killing birds on a massive scale? FFS!

    This is just a small selection of posts covering the last few days, so who knows what other madness is being spouted.

    And finally, a wee message for our old friend David Holden (aka Hector). I don’t know about Iain Gibson, or Les Wallace, but I’ve already told you that I’m not on Facebook, so it really is pointless having stupid, snide digs at people on Facebook, especially if you know that I don’t subscribe to that particular format of debate. I’ve been told you’ve been doing this for many months now, so knowing that we both use this site, why not use your debating skills on here instead? Surely, that would make more sense?

  19. 25 Iain Gibson
    December 15, 2016 at 1:55 am

    Marco’s contribution above reminded me of what it’s like to converse with gamekeepers. I’ve not done so for several years now for rather obvious reasons, but the piece brought back all sorts of memories of how frustrating it is attempting to hold anything resembling a sensible discussion with most of them. The recent photograph on this blog of Bert Burnett and his associates sent a shiver down my spine. Another one in the picture, whom I won’t name, spoke at the Scottish Ornithologists’ Club annual conference a number of years ago. I was horrified at the time that so many of the audience were taken with his couthy manner, so much so that the more gullible listeners fell for his charms and thought he knew what he was talking about. However I felt his entire talk was utter drivel, and time certainly hasn’t changed my mind. I really do believe most gamekeepers have a highly distorted view of reality, and there’s nothing more surrealistic than listening to a whole bunch of them chatting in the local pub, becoming more and more bizarre as the night goes on and the whisky runs dry. They are a lost cause, and no-one should take them seriously, except perhaps those of them who are serious criminals. Like many, I’m shocked at the idea of Natural England issuing raptor nest disturbance licences to gamekeepers, but this also raises the question – is the BTO issuing them with ringing permits, and based on what level of training and experience? I don’t believe for a moment that they do, but can anyone answer this question to set my mind at rest?

    • 26 David Baird
      December 15, 2016 at 12:50 pm

      In that vein Iain, I can recall a number of years ago a gamekeeper telling my father how he had that day destroyed “an adders nest complete with a clutch of adders eggs…”

  20. 27 Paul V Irving
    December 15, 2016 at 8:20 am

    No ringing permits issued nor will they be I strongly suspect. Requires training lots of training and despite what Bert and the morons ( good name for a band) it is highly regulated.

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